What’s actually going on in Ukraine is that there is a massive incentive difference between the elites and the people.
The former have grown very rich off the hundreds of billions flowing to Ukraine, while the latter’s children are conscripted to die in trenches.
Last I’ve heard, most civilians polled want the war to end…but would rather keep fighting than end without concessions Russia isn’t willing (IIRC restoring occupied territory, maybe NATO). But I think that was over a year ago.
Personally (I a non-Ukrainian) think it’s horrendous they physically kidnap young men and place them in the front lines, which they are accused of and probably to some extent doing. I doubt it’s effective, and if it’s that or lose, they’ve already lost. But if the Ukrainian majority in Ukraine does not want to officially surrender, and I can definitely understand why, we should keep supporting them. Otherwise it should end. Though if denying weapons and other resources is unlikely to reduce the bloodshed, we should continue providing them but change our messaging, using that evidence to persuade other nations.
That’s some grade A B.S. — Elon talking about elites.
We should never have allowed this private citizen to be in a position where he has a hand in the spigot of defense infrastructure, dictating the outcome of foreign policy by fiat because he’s a company owner.
It's true there's a difference between Ukraine's people and elites but it skips the larger issue of this being a war of choice by Russia that could stop tomorrow if Putin chose.
I think hobbling Starlink is the wrong direction - they should increase access to let Ukraine take out missile launchers in Russia.
Just to play devil's advocate - why should a private American citizen offering a telecommunication network be compelled by an Eastern European power to let them use that network to guide killing machines?
Bearing in mind this war has absolutely nothing to do with the private American citizen.
Seems especially dangerous for the American citizen to be required to provide this support now that Russia is destroying Starlink stations in response - see the stories from Lithuania and Poland:
Just for the record, I support Ukraine in its defence against Russia's illegal and outrageous invasion. However, I don't understand by which moral or legal code, Elon Musk is required to provide direct military assistance to them?
Musk dared to talk about a massive incentive difference between the elites and the people? He dared to talk about elites growing rich off of hundreds of billions?
> A private citizen turning off a military system with everyone in the administration ok with it?
The Trump administration has all the hallmarks of Russian assets, and Elon "please invite me to your wildest parties mr Epstein" Musk is no different. Once you start to look at those bunch through that perspective, their once incomprehensible and self defeating stunts start to make sense.
Hillary Clinton warned all you guys that Trump was a Russian asset and you learned nothing.
Musk is not my idol but I have to agree with him. Sending someone else's kids to die for a proxy war was the wrong move. They should have used diplomacy to resolve it. Europe is using Ukraine aka a small country for its proxy war with Russia that has become a perma war like in star-track.
People in the west want Russia to lose badly that they have no problem sacrificing some other country as their proxy just like Afghanistan war with Russia. Afghanistan became dust and land of warlords and did not become a democratic country and still running perma wars and it has been what, 40 years!?
Are they planning to continue this till all the kids in Ukraine die? For how many years?
Americans don't want the war to end either. They were part of the playbook at the onset. They are pretending to want to end the war. What they want is for Europe to finance the war without their contribution.
You can’t have diplomacy with a group who systematically rapes and murders entire families.
You can’t have diplomacy with a group who purposefully targets civilians with reckless abandon instead of legitimate military targets to kill the people.
You can’t have diplomacy with a group who doesn’t believe you exist or should exist. That it would be better to execute you than negotiate with you.
You cannot have diplomacy with a group who brought mobile crematories to disappear your citizens. Who had lists for who should be be killed.
You cannot have diplomacy with a group who does not want diplomacy.
Early in WW2 the Jews would stand in line for hours to wait and be shot. They would queue politely to be executed. That is what “diplomacy” looks like in this case.
Ukraine was on the verge of surrendering early in the war. Then news of the Bucha atrocities reached the Ukrainian Leadership and they refused to surrender. Because surrender means certain death. That’s the thing folks don’t seem to get.. if you’re fate is to die.. or to fight and have a chance at not dying.
In proxy wars, the apposition groups are evil and rapists except the ones that are sitting on sidelines and pump the war to continue. Whosever kids that are not dying in the war are the most ethical, moral and righteous. They parts Europe won't allow the war to end but not in their own home turf have the highest morals of them all! yup!
Most of Europe did not take care of their jews or helped them. They allied with Germans like vishy France. US turned back a ship of Jews that were escaping the war. USA's interest was in far east against Japan. They dumped the nukes on civilian populations there to solidify their takeover of Hawaii .. what a high morals.. wow!
tim333 15 hours ago
java-man 1 day ago
zombocomvibes 1 day ago
java-man 1 day ago
A private citizen turning off a military system with everyone in the administration ok with it?
armchairhacker 1 day ago
Last I’ve heard, most civilians polled want the war to end…but would rather keep fighting than end without concessions Russia isn’t willing (IIRC restoring occupied territory, maybe NATO). But I think that was over a year ago.
Personally (I a non-Ukrainian) think it’s horrendous they physically kidnap young men and place them in the front lines, which they are accused of and probably to some extent doing. I doubt it’s effective, and if it’s that or lose, they’ve already lost. But if the Ukrainian majority in Ukraine does not want to officially surrender, and I can definitely understand why, we should keep supporting them. Otherwise it should end. Though if denying weapons and other resources is unlikely to reduce the bloodshed, we should continue providing them but change our messaging, using that evidence to persuade other nations.
pohl 1 day ago
We should never have allowed this private citizen to be in a position where he has a hand in the spigot of defense infrastructure, dictating the outcome of foreign policy by fiat because he’s a company owner.
He only has allegiance to himself.
tim333 22 hours ago
I think hobbling Starlink is the wrong direction - they should increase access to let Ukraine take out missile launchers in Russia.
lawn 1 day ago
Almost like he's the elite he's complaining about.
Always projection.
cbeach 1 day ago
Bearing in mind this war has absolutely nothing to do with the private American citizen.
Seems especially dangerous for the American citizen to be required to provide this support now that Russia is destroying Starlink stations in response - see the stories from Lithuania and Poland:
https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/lithuania-starlink-arson-...
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cmp30r1klk37o
Just for the record, I support Ukraine in its defence against Russia's illegal and outrageous invasion. However, I don't understand by which moral or legal code, Elon Musk is required to provide direct military assistance to them?
uxcolumbo 1 day ago
Musk broke the SLA and Ukrainians died because of it. No warning that SpaceX would cripple it during a time when Russia heavily attacked Ukraine.
Ukraine uses it to defend itself on its own soil. It”s not using it for deep strikes in Russia.
Musk thinks he’s above the law and can play with Ukrainian lives.
cbeach 15 hours ago
Starshield has different T&Cs, of course, but that network is wholly governed by the Pentagon, not by Musk
I don’t understand why everyone is making Elon Musk the bad guy here, but it does seem to be a peculiar quirk of the HN audience.
tim333 22 hours ago
AnimalMuppet 1 day ago
Am I the only one who feels like throwing up?
doublerabbit 1 day ago
He is just so insufferable.
locknitpicker 1 day ago
The Trump administration has all the hallmarks of Russian assets, and Elon "please invite me to your wildest parties mr Epstein" Musk is no different. Once you start to look at those bunch through that perspective, their once incomprehensible and self defeating stunts start to make sense.
Hillary Clinton warned all you guys that Trump was a Russian asset and you learned nothing.
tim333 22 hours ago
I mean it was pretty obvious he was in with Russia whereas Rubio seemed quite decent. Why did the republicans choose the asset?
silverFork 1 day ago
People in the west want Russia to lose badly that they have no problem sacrificing some other country as their proxy just like Afghanistan war with Russia. Afghanistan became dust and land of warlords and did not become a democratic country and still running perma wars and it has been what, 40 years!?
Are they planning to continue this till all the kids in Ukraine die? For how many years?
Americans don't want the war to end either. They were part of the playbook at the onset. They are pretending to want to end the war. What they want is for Europe to finance the war without their contribution.
digi59404 1 day ago
You can’t have diplomacy with a group who systematically rapes and murders entire families.
You can’t have diplomacy with a group who purposefully targets civilians with reckless abandon instead of legitimate military targets to kill the people.
You can’t have diplomacy with a group who doesn’t believe you exist or should exist. That it would be better to execute you than negotiate with you.
You cannot have diplomacy with a group who brought mobile crematories to disappear your citizens. Who had lists for who should be be killed.
You cannot have diplomacy with a group who does not want diplomacy.
Early in WW2 the Jews would stand in line for hours to wait and be shot. They would queue politely to be executed. That is what “diplomacy” looks like in this case.
Ukraine was on the verge of surrendering early in the war. Then news of the Bucha atrocities reached the Ukrainian Leadership and they refused to surrender. Because surrender means certain death. That’s the thing folks don’t seem to get.. if you’re fate is to die.. or to fight and have a chance at not dying.
You fight.
silverFork 1 day ago
Most of Europe did not take care of their jews or helped them. They allied with Germans like vishy France. US turned back a ship of Jews that were escaping the war. USA's interest was in far east against Japan. They dumped the nukes on civilian populations there to solidify their takeover of Hawaii .. what a high morals.. wow!